Forum of the fools

Poker forums are useful for a person's development as a player, but they can also be poisonous. Here is a thread that is a good example. Nearly every answer is in some respects bad, and some are extremely wrong.

First of all, the OP. For starters he should not play at Absolute Poker. AP employees cheated the players, and AP was not straight about it. No selfrespecting player should give them any of their money. Second, playing the 1.20s is not a great idea. The rake is horrible and the play is too bad to make any progress as a player. Better to play higher and reload if you go busto. Third, the OP thinks he has TPTK, but he does not. He has TP2K. Not that it matters much. Few enough players limp AK that you will not usually find it in MP1's range.

So Green Kool Aid is first to answer. I don't know him, but he ought to have a clue. He has a ton of posts. It may be that he habituates another forum though, so his advice probably isn't particularly good in STTs. I dunno. Anyway, his advice here is no good. It doesn't matter whether you bet 90 or 120 in this spot because you are not folding, regardless. It seems a bit results oriented to suggest raising less anyway.

NoLimitLeagues is a new poster, whose advice has been a bit iffy. He sticks to making a crack about AP.

backrhodes14 is new to me. His advice is bad. You should not fold in this spot. MP1's most likely hand is Ax where x < Q. He may have hit two pair, but he's more likely to have AJ/AT/A9 and to be overvaluing his hand. He could have a flush draw, although it's a bit unlikely (the most likely draw would be Asxs, but he can't have that). Of course, he can also have a set, but if he does, you're shit outta luck.

ShowUthExit has the right idea.

13ball is wrong. Staying in won't always make you money at $1 and it's not much different at higher levels. I would not fold this at any level I play. It's swings and roundabouts as far as buyin goes: play higher and they're slightly less likely to have limped A2; play lower and they're slightly more likely to get it in with hands you beat.

juandadi's post is the most interesting. He's a winning player at the 16s, but his posts on 2p2 make me wonder how. His second suggestion is okay. Check/shoving the turn would be fine. However, few players at the low levels raise you on the flop only to fold when you shove. They are usually expressing their intention to go all the way. So just shoving is fine. If the guy folds, oh well. You win a decent pot with no further risk. That's always okay.

But where he is wrong is his suggestion that we are way ahead/way behind (WA/WB). We are not, and it's important to realise it, because WA/WB hands should generally be played the same way.

The concept is familiar to limit players. You raise with a hand like KK and are called by a tight player. You are able to narrow his range to big aces and pairs TT+ or something like that. The flop comes A73r. You are likely to be WA/WB. The other guy either has a pair of aces, and you are drawing to two outs to beat him, or he has a pair that is drawing to two outs to beat you. The key to it is that you are either just about dead or the other guy is but you don't know which. The standard way to play this kind of hand out of position is to check and call all three streets. In position, you check behind flop and turn, and bet the river.

But here, the other guy can easily have a hand like A5, which has seven outs to beat you, or a flush draw, which has nine. He can even have 65, which has four outs, 44, which has four outs, or 6s5s, which has 13 outs.

WA/WB doesn't just mean "you're either winning or losing". It means that in most cases you have either won or lost the hand already. You play it to lose the minimum when you're behind, because you will not make much when you're ahead. It's the kind of hand that you can only really lose money on. One reason is that it's usually apparent to the other guy that he's ahead.

What juandadi means is "if he has Ax, x < Q, we are WA/WB", which is true. But his range is a lot wider than Ax, x < Q, and he can be many shades of ahead or behind.


sengiokang's post is just wrong all the way through. It's fine to limp preflop. Raising will tend only to bloat the flop OOP. Checking the flop would be bad here. Leading is good, because you want to charge flush draws and make crap aces pay you off, which they will happily. You are perfectly happy to be raised, because you will get it in with $1 fish all day long with TP2K. What would really suck would be to check, have everyone else check behind and then see a spade come on the turn, making the donk's flush for free. A key point in deciding whether to lead at this flop is that there was no raise PF--which not only means that your hand is likely best but also means that you do not have a likely bettor. He continues to get it wrong by suggesting you want to make your hand look stronger by CRing. You do not want to make your hand look stronger! You want AT to get it in with you, not to conclude you have a monster and fold.